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Healing Names of Jesus | Janita Pace

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman
The Truth Network Radio
October 15, 2022 1:00 am

Healing Names of Jesus | Janita Pace

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman

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October 15, 2022 1:00 am

Countless people today face depression and anxiety. Is there hope for you? On this edition of Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author and counselor Jenita Pace has a resource that addresses those challenges from a spiritual and a therapeutic perspective. What might happen in your heart and soul if you deepen your understanding of God? Don’t miss today's Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.

Featured resource: The Healing Names of Jesus: By Janita Pace

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It took a new spin on my depression in my eyes that my depression is actually a way that I need my Dr. Jesus and it becomes something that's gone from feeling shameful to actually feeling very powerful catalyst in my life for my spiritual growth wealth building relationship with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times seller. "The 5 Love Languages" authoring counselors need to talk about journey.

Featured resource is book is titled the healing Jesus featured, this new site link human resources program as well as let you see the quiz you can take to discover your love language or someone else's. We have a way for you to download the podcast get the love, knowledge, and a whole lot more if you want to see what we have for you. Just go to Building Relationships.US now you can still use five love but we thought this might make it a little bit easier to navigate all things Building Relationships.

Again, go to the website.

The new one. Building us now before we start the program today I want to tell you a little note about the conversation. Content that is straightahead part of Janita Pace's story contains a suicide attack so I want to prepare you for that part of the conversation that is coming up and Gary, I know that through the years. You have dealt with a lot of couples and individuals who have walked this same road of depression and anxiety was been your experience from a pastor's perspective, Chris.

I think other far more people that struggle with these issues than most people recognize it. We don't took a walk around and to share where we are in our emotional and mental, spiritual journey with people if were struggling in these areas but I think the reality is that many people sitting in our churches Sunday by Sunday are struggling with these areas and I think the more we can learn about those leaders and also laypeople about this issue is going to help us learn how to help others. So I'm excited about our conversation today on this topic I am to and maybe as you listen. Today you're hiding something, you are not fully telling others. What's going on inside the storm that you're feeling would you listen to Janita story and ask God for the courage to share your heart with somebody you can trust it may feel like you're all alone and that nobody understands that is understandable. But what good thing might happen if you open your heart to someone else who will listen.

I guess this Janita pace. She began her pursuit in 2001 to help people who battle depression after overcoming her own battle and she now runs a private practice in Minnesota. She's a pastor's wife, a licensed professional counselor in Minnesota and a member of the national Board of certified counselors. She's an adjunct professor at Northwestern and holds a BA in biblical studies from Columbia International University and an MA ED in school counseling from Western Carolina University.

Janita and her husband Tim have two sons.

She's joining us today from Minnesota.

Featured resource is her book the healing names of Jesus find freedom from depression and anxiety. You can find out more that's Building Relationships .us are welcome to Building Relationships. All thank you for having me carry let's go back 20 years or so when you began this journey. What kind of symptoms did you experience for me, the symptoms really came out of nowhere and I began noticing that it was hard to get out of bed felt fatigued a lot.

I started to have trouble concentrating started having confusion but that most alarming symptom in the toughest for me was just a deep emotional pain I found myself crying a lot. I found myself feeling worthless a lot of thoughts about how I wasn't eligible to be a Christian because I had all this fear and doubt. And so for me a lot of the symptoms came on very suddenly and very quickly.

Your husband was a pastor.

He seemed to understand what you're going through or how did he respond not at the time. I mean, he's worked hard now to understand but I think being a Bible college we had learned about depression and anxiety. But that always sounded like something other people go through you, maybe other people that don't know God or maybe people that are struggling and are weak, and so it was really hard to comprehend how I could be going to that since we were in ministry and I had gone to Bible college and so at the time. Unfortunately, he put a lot of pressure on me to just kind that you pray about it and move forward.

And so unfortunately at that point she really didn't understand what I was going through did you feel pressure you know like bring a pastor's wife and what people expect of you. Did you handle those thoughts absolutely no as a Christian I felt like I should have quote the joy of the Lord hear that a lot and then as a pastor's wife. I felt like I should be modeling this I should be the one that everyone looks to and says wow, look at how incredible it is to follow Jesus and then there were also the pressures to be at events and to be present all the time. The more I felt this unspoken disappointment from the church and sometimes actually a spoken disappointment with the pastor mentioning to Tempe Janita's not here or you know Janita really needs to be present and so sometimes you know that disappointment from the church wasn't just even imagined in my mind it was actually happening. Chris mentioned that there was a juncture at which you actually attempted suicide. On that day when things are so bad.

What were your thoughts. What were you feeling what was going through your mind yeah I got back to that time and I just think while I was just heartbroken. I started to believe a really powerful lie that I was not worth anything anymore, and that actually Tim would be better off without me that he could do his job better if he had a wife, you could actually participate and so I came to the conclusion that I would actually be more loving if I took my life which is so upside down, but it made sense to me at the time and so I had planned that when he went to youth group on a Wednesday night that I would overdose and I had prepared everything. And as God would have it, Tim forgot something and he came back home and he actually walked in on me attempting, and it was the most broken moment of our marriage. I was crying.

He was crying and so he forced me to go to the hospital and I did not want to go, and when I got there and I was admitted against my will, and it was so heartbreaking for Tim to leave without me, but was so incredible as they did let me have my Bible and it was one of those times in my life and I'm just flipping to the pages. I don't even know what to read. Maybe you know maybe everyone's had that where it just so desperate you don't even know where to go and I stumbled on some 121 where it talks about that we can look to the hills, and God is our hope and that he doesn't sleep and he watches over us and so I read that Psalm every day for multiple times a day and after 10 days I got out of the hospital and I came home and I had voicemails from so many people and one of them really caught my attention. It was from one of my professors, Steve Bradley at club International and he just said hey Janita, I know you're in the hospital right now but I just want you to know that I felt called to read Psalm 121 to you on your voicemail and man, you talk about a moment where to seem like God was reminding me. He hadn't left and so Steve wanted me to meet his wife, Pat, and I didn't want to meet, but Pat was insistent because she had had depression on the mission field, and she started mentoring me and she would tell me things like now I know you don't have help but I'll carry help for you and she would defend me when other people would judge me and so she started ministering to me but about a month and 1/2 after we started working together. She died suddenly and Timmy called me and told me I was so angry with God. You know St. like you took my one person and I was crying and I got my shoes on and I just decided to walk to her mailbox, which is down the road when I got there there was a car that Pat had mailed the day she died, and it just said and it just said cots can use this like you're going to see and I thought oh my gosh you dose and Pat was just such a feisty little person that I could imagine you know she just put her heart and soul into me. And so I've been carrying that message in my heart that okay God I don't know where you're going with this bite, but I have to keep walking in and see what happened. So it's been a 20 year journey, but I'm sure Pat is not surprised. She would say I told you so might, but that's been my journey journey through suicide and attempting, and coming out on the other side.

Did you know the time the world was near to Tribune's total shock. No, she died from sepsis, is really fast.

She I mean no one saw it coming and Steve Bradley actually connected just a few months ago and we are just talking about the shock of that and how much she has been missed. How much she'd had before she died in the legacy that she left the concert loosely as I listened all about see God's hand, both in bringing Tim Burkholder is also in your conflict with this. This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. I guess today is author Janita pace and our featured resource.

Today is her book the healing names of Jesus find freedom from depression and anxiety. You can find out more at

As you look back on your life the times before you begin to experience these feelings of depression and anxiety were there things in your life.

Looking back, might have contributed to your coming to the point of depression. You know, it's so great that's a question because I looked back and tried to figure out what was the what was the trigger and I think for me, there was a lot of change in my life very quickly. I was starting a new job that was a little above my understanding so a lot of learning went into that and then I got married really young and I have to clear fights at my husband that was difficult but I got married that was yeah I always want to make sure people know it's not Tim.

It is just you know it's it's a deaf it's a change and I was married I was 20 and then I had some shifting friendships and moved away from my home and so I think a lot is shifting a lot of change and then again, I think a lot of it was biological so between that you know the biological changes and the life changes. It is think I think it was a perfect storm for depression when you talk about the marriage part you don't have to convince me that salaam stress and explodes clearly through horrible logo that I got depressed but I did. You're frustrated.

I'm not getting paid. She was the problem of you know that yes you changes when you get married. Talk to other pastors wives. I'm sure there's some posters was loosely out there. What would you would usually live with this juncture 1 August want to thank them for their ministry because being a pastor's wife you are in ministry. Even if you're not hired by the church and back.

One thing I wish I would've known is that that Paul in second Corinthians 12 nine I think he talks about how he's actually made perfect in his weakness, which we talk about the first but if you really think about it any pain or trials or hurt were going through that we actually have the power then to understand got the gospel better and so I would just encourage them that your weakness or your pain or suffering doesn't make you ineligible to be in your ministry. It actually makes you more eligible because you have a unique understanding of things that people in your church are going through and I guarantee there are people in your church that are going to depression and anxiety and so I would tell them to not be afraid to not be ashamed. And, you know. Even Jesus exhibited fear and anxiety before he died. And so I'm so grateful for his transparency and so I would just want them to be assured into now that you have nothing to be ashamed of. And if your church doesn't support you in that then that church isn't the place to be for your own mental safety and your own mental health and growth.

You mentioned earlier that you felt pressure yourself, your mental health struggle because you were posters was nothing many posters was new free will. But where were my posters wife turn obviously in your situation you know you have a former professor that reached out to you and introduced her to his wife and were much the normal posters wife turn if she struggling with going with this. You know I had problems in that church than when I first came out it can't. You know when you're in the hospital then everybody knows Depression and unfortunately the elders and the pastor actually came and confronted me about maybe a sin that caused my depression and at that point Tim and I knew we had to leave the church, we couldn't function we couldn't be healthy under that and so if the church that you're in is not working with you and that that my first suggestion would be to find a group of believers who embrace mental health and have support groups and have opportunities to get help because that's the kind of community that you need. I would also say that it's so important to look at group counseling. I joined a group counseling program after I came out with depression and group counseling is so powerful, even if it's not a Christian group counseling experience is the fact that you have other people normalizing that this is not something unique to you is just so important and it's so powerful, so I would definitely encourage talking to a therapist about opportunities for group counseling. I guess that even if it's not in your church and it's in a professional setting were the posters themselves because you think pastors often feel like we were no don't want to let this get out now because this will hurt her ministry to cover it up so you guys. We have to be open and honest about where we're going in our journey for wife is struggling in this area.

We need the open and honest with her and obviously discussing with whom to share this first step, so this new depression and anxiety typically first themselves together. Those two things. They can definitely manifest together. I kinda think of it like a teeter totter where one can come out of the gate, really strong, and then as that gets better. The other one comes out of the gate, so I have people who are going through a deep depression and then as they start to find motivation to get through it. Suddenly there struggling with extreme anxiety so they can definitely be partners that are really hard to go through because they do show some opposing symptoms, but like I said, typically when one starts to get better.

The other starts to take over so helping people realize that they're not exclusive, they can actually kinda hold hands with each other and make it difficult because then you're fighting to diagnoses and not just one but all of us have days in which we are emotionally well you know but those numbers asserted depression can you know if depression or anxiety is really a problem stage of life I would tell your listeners that if you find that it's really impacting your daily life, then that's a sign that this goes beyond just maybe a day or two of having sadness. You know it is hard because I do have clients who come in panicking, that have depression when we look at their life. The going through a lot of things that maybe they they feel sad about.

But regardless of whether it's clinical depression or situational. I'm a big proponent of people getting therapy regardless because I think it's just important to have that resource available so I would encourage anyone who is even unsure the level of the depth of their suffering to contact someone and let someone cut help navigate if it's something that you need long-term support for maybe you just need a few sessions to kinda get your your emotions under control for his life was designed by God not to be lived alone right now is another husbands wives are not always adequate to help other mobile studies in which the postman or the wife doesn't quite have the skills there so somebody outside of ourselves and special someone is been trained in counseling can be very helpful well and let's talk about some of the healing strips were to take for someone who suffering from depression what you know you really touched on what I would say is one of the main steps and that is getting help from others.

You know, one of the stories that I talk about my book is from Luke five where a man he's paralyzed is lowered by four friends in front of Jesus and it took for friends to get him in front of Jesus. He couldn't do it just by himself, and it's not that we can't praying come to Jesus ourselves, but wow the power of having four friends who are that committed to be part of the process and so what a powerful example of how we need people to help us lower before Jesus and we are not meant to do that alone, and I so I think the first step is to really get what I call a care team. I ask all my clients you know who could we asked to help you as you are on this journey because were meant to have a community when you watch National Geographic. The predators always pick off the animal who is who is off on its own.

They try to isolate one animal from the crowd and how what a picture of how the enemy works where he wants us isolated and so I would say the first step is get a therapist and start talking about who could be in your care team. Right now he could help lower you before Jesus every day thinking in some areas laypeople specially who may be struggling with depression might not know how to fund a culture what what might be your first step in processing a lot of the churches that I work with right now offer a list of counselors that they would recommend that are available and so what's really great to is that if you look at a website from a church and they have that in you know in their website and the resources you can be pretty sure that they're very open to talking about mental health so you could contact local churches and see hey do you have a list of resources he'd recommend in many churches do, which is so great and so if you're not even sure where to start.

I would definitely begin by asking your church or even if you don't go to church but you you know of a church start looking at their website and see what they recommend because hopefully they're working with local counselors that they would they would trust and that so important that you have those options to typically counselors relate to posters because we know that many times people turn to the posterior first in search of a culture so you have such great advice. You know most of us have somebody in our circles but we would call for humans to a greater or lesser degree. You know if a friend or family member is a slave person to talk with these kind of issues that's a great question Gary because I try to know you know I want my clients to know that there are well-meaning people who are not good choices for care team and I would pay attention to how they talk about the gospel you know when they see somebody who is struggling. Did they see that as a lack of faith or did they see that is something that is a part of being in this world and they need support. So I would pay attention to how do they approach others who are suffering and struggling, and then if you talk to someone and they're not understanding you know, don't be afraid to start over with someone else just to know that there are people who mean well, but they're really not good choices. So I would definitely begin to pay attention. Who do you feel has that unconditional acceptance who's a good listener and who is willing to make you a priority when you need to be cared for. So if you have someone in their circle of friendship. I think this might be the personal should share with what might that first Sen. to look like open up to for him, you know. Thankfully I will say this I feel like mental health is become more and more of an open topic and so I pass people sometimes you know what you think about what happened to Naomi died, or what your thoughts on depression to sometimes. I asked the questions first, and if I feel like their answers kind of mirror what I need or what I feel is the grace filled response from the gospel that I'll share you know for me that that was really personal or for me. I really do struggle and like I said, have kind of already vetted the person by asking questions on what their viewpoints are on mental illness and on depression and so usually I start with questions before I begin talking about my story.

You mentioned the pressure on the pastor's wife in the you felt on the inside. Looking back on that no was there also pressure for you to figure this out so that God would get the glory. And that you would figure out why you had depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation and all that that that you could figure out why God was doing this so that you could make all the puzzle pieces come together that make sense.

Absolutely I feel like unfortunately the idea that you have to have a testimony means that you have to have a happy ending. I almost feel like when people get up and share testimony.

They in everyone's waiting for the ending and how it all got resolved and wouldn't be powerful if we welcome people to share testimonies that don't have a ending yet or don't have an answer yet so absolutely I think that I was hoping that if I do have depression that I'm going to have this amazing finish. That's gonna happen soon so that I can go ahead and share with people yes absolutely. Thanks for joining us today for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" you can find more simple ways to strengthen relationships@ Our guest is Janita pace and were talking about her book the healing names of Jesus find freedom from depression and anxiety can find out more at that's five love to move the total of your devotional scroll healing names of Jesus. Can you walk us through a few of those names all the person who is struggling in the spirit. Sure, I love talking about the names of God, because it's just so inspiring. Probably my favorite from the book is the lion of Judah. So for this book. I took different metaphors and really dove into see what are they about, and when I read about Lyons.

What I learned is that male lions their whole job is to guard the territory of their family and so they spend their whole life just keeping the pride safe and they have specially designed eyes, so that even in the darkest nights they can actually see really well and so what a picture of our line of Judah, our God, who walks the borders of our mind and so often times alas, the lion of Judah walk the borders of my mind and drive out any lies that are coming in and trying to convince me that I'm not loved her. I'm not worthy. And I'm not part of the gospel story and so that that's probably my favorite name and that's the one that has most impacted me from the book list yeah just love that picture.

So hear you saying that you would so I'm still so Lord Walker borders among your little yeah well I cooked I like that picture what was another night just got your God hopeful us are so many I mean one of them that you know is simple but actually powerful for me is physician or doctor.

I think that my husband has a medical condition and we spend a lot of time at Mayo Clinic and so we become really good friends with Dr. Fleming she knows us personally and realizing that my depression weirdly enough, keeps me in Jesus's presence all the time I have to visit him as my doctor was so great about a doctor as they don't say, well, if you hurt yourself or if you you know, done something that's injured you then. I'm not treating you.

They never asked you know they treat you no matter what.

And so, how great that I get to know my physician, my Jesus so well because I'm in his doctor's office every day so it took a new spin on my depression in my eyes that my depression is actually a way that I need my Dr. Jesus and its become something that's gone from feeling shameful to actually feeling very powerful as a catalyst in my life or my spiritual growth during today's world, many folks have a problem but call the doctor's office, so to be three weeks or three months before your uniform or move their symptoms of depression. But you call owned slaves look good scope is not rooted should not true.

Know anyone at the names that also came to life for me was the spirit being called a counselor because how beautiful that when the Holy Spirit comes and lives in us.

He agrees to live the life with us. So knowing that God isn't just watching you, but the spirit is actually experiencing your depression with you and choosing to suffer alongside you and pray on your behalf because he intimately understands what you're going through. So, it's so great to know that now we don't have to. He's right there waiting to talk to us wanting to talk to us and when we don't know what to say.

The spirit is already speaking on her behalf, and I just love that picture is loaded earlier in your life. One of God's clear his voices in the Bible. Psalm 121 use that in your life for sure for sure yes absolutely. What would you say to those who try the phone some measure of healing, but there still struggling and wondering what walk if this just gone.

I get that question a lot and I just want to clarify for anyone listening that I still struggle with depression.

My story is not just over and for a long time.

I waited and thought, you know, I can finally tell my story once I'm over depression but I realize that there's a strange comfort in the idea that I will probably struggle with depression my entire life, but that doesn't mean that I've lost the battle. It just means that I'll be in the battle probably for my whole life and that's why go back to the picture of the doctor that because of this depression. I have an opportunity to grow in ways that may be other people don't. And so I would tell people who continue to suffer. Please don't look at it as you haven't won the battle. It might just be that this is your battle but don't do it alone do it with people like me do it with others to fully understand that okay were in this, but it doesn't mean that were weak and actually according to Corinthians.

It means that were specially designed to reach other people that sometimes you know maybe Christians who don't struggle don't understand, and so turning that struggle from something that's a loss to something that's actually a victory earlier you mentioned clinical depression and situational depression. Explain those to yeah so you know for some people. Situational depression happens when there's a huge impact event in their life and it's actually something that brings grief and the symptoms of depression come alive because of what happened. Clinical kinda goes beyond that, where even after the situation is over and people have kind of continually moved forward, and the situation is becoming less traumatic that they get stuck, and the symptoms are not going away and it can also happen like in my case I mean I had some changes in my life, but nothing that would necessarily warrant the symptoms that I had and so I definitely think that for clinical there is a biological component where you need to see someone to get medications and get your biology working okay and clinical can involve you know much more than just kind of moving forward in a grief situation where it actually involves learning how to think with your new struggles in the new way that your mind might be working so clinical tends to go even deeper than situational like the poultry mode, often with any disease where there is a biological thing a person struggles sometimes for years with the referring. It's not that they can't function because they do root leukemia for luminal people leukemia for years. It didn't go away. So suit and other seasons in which the user and better in other seasons, it is more difficult and assumes clinical depression because it does have a biological element to it will continue to be with you, probably over the low point. Can I ask a question do need about your you and your husband. You mentioned that the church, so there's still in your life and that at that point you knew you had to leave that had to of been just a really hard season. The very people the should be walking beside you are accusing you that has to be such a deep want how to get over that.

Oh gosh it was heartbreaking especially for my husband. The elders and the pastor told us they were coming to our house and we were both hoping that that would be a time of fellowship and encouragement, and when it didn't go that way. It was just devastating for. I still remember how that felt. And we didn't really start healing until we found other believers and other pastors who confirmed that that was not true. And one of our closest friends. Mike Richards is a pastor who openly shares about his struggles with depression and so other church leaders modeling that yes you can be in ministry and you can struggle that was a huge part of the healing process for us. So a big part of it was having other believers confirm that that's not true so but it was definitely heartbreaking for us to think like people sometimes think the posters all the problems posters wives are human exactly exactly you you also work a lot with teenagers and college students. What are you seeing in this age group is for his mental and emotional issues in order.

I think that the more I talk to teens and college students. The amount of pressure there under is just extreme. There are times when I'll have them write out their schedule for me and when I look at it. I tell him I'm having an anxiety attack. Just looking at your schedule, I mean between working and getting good grades and been on the national honor Society and trying to be a good daughter good son or a good child and by the time we get to the end of it. There's nothing there's nothing left. There's no room for any grace or the gospel. And so I think a lot of times we don't realize how much pressure the teens and the college students are under in this current. This current world. I think social media gets a bad rap.

I may think there are components of social media that can contribute to mental health but I think a large part of what's happening is being overlooked and understated, and I think the bottom line is, a lot of the teens I talked to their parents and the adults in their life are just not listening. They're trying to share what's going on in there trying to advocate and often times I hear Christian parents say oh they're just saying that because their friends or have a counselor or oh they're just saying that, but they just need to pray more, or the saying that but you know if they just change their mindset will be fine and having parents and adults realize no teen and college mental health is actually a national epidemic that we need to address so you know the stats show that the majority of teens that are struggling or not getting services which is alarming to me to parents are listening or hearing what you're saying because I think you wrote many times between merger will share things the parent ignores them or comes back and was not a problem or whatever and consequently the team stop sharing the goal struggling with the stop sharing with the parents so absolutely sure.

Thanks for joining us today for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" do you need to pace as our guest in our featured resources. Her book the healing names of Jesus find freedom from depression and anxiety. You can find out more at Many people live with regrets about mistakes in their post live with that sense of guilt. What would you say a person I think that for me growing up in the church.

I always knew John 316.

You know, God love the world gave his son and now we are forgiven by that is the mass of the gospel. I want people to understand the art of the gospel and the beauty of the gospel is that you have no idea how deeply you are loved and wanted by your God and truthfully God is so in love with you.

You know talks about that you are a masterpiece in Ephesians 210 and we don't go to you know art galleries to see the art do something, you know, we go to art galleries just to stand in the presence of something that was created by by an artist and so you don't understand that God is excited to be in your presence. I mean Zephaniah talks about how God sayings what he sings about is you I mean you inspire the God of the universe to sing and so want people to understand that there is literally nothing you could do that would change that deep of a commitment and when I tell believers that it's something that they've never really thought about.

A lot of times you know they know that Jesus of the world.

But the idea that there's nothing literally nothing you could do that would change that level of commitment and passion for you is kind of a new thought and something they haven't really considered before you know when we live with the guilt sometimes we allow the memory to control her behavior rather than acknowledging the God Lord you know what I'm remembering the thank you that this been forgiven verbally affirming to God and being honest to God about what's going on in your mind, but also acknowledging if we confess that it has been forgiven.

Yeah. And God loves forgiveness. He paid such a big price for it. He's excited to use it. And so again I pray that the lion of Judah you drive that out, because that's not the gospel that's a lie book on your own life to. Obviously the pressure you are under the pressure you're going through all of this was hard. You have a measure of healing and you been walking along with with that pleasure feeling God restore as you look back on how to restore your mental health and your and your marital relationship to I think that it's been a journey, but Tim incredibly jumped right into wanting to learn how to help me and she's never had depression but he was determined to find out what he need to do to help, and he got his own counselor so he would always tell anyone who supporting someone else sure you have your own counselor and your own care team because you can't help someone alone so he got his own care team to help them and in that process, we've actually learned how to live together with my depression being that kind of continual challenge and it's been incredible and and we actually have done some work with life support resources to talk to couples about how you can you know go forward in your marriage. When one person struggles with depression and the other person is struggling to help and so I would definitely say that we both grown spiritually in that process and you know they're still days are hard but we become a great team at taking on this challenge and with God's help really growing for you know both of us spiritually in overcoming that challenge you to move the bubble talks a lot about adoption.

We are adopted goes adopted us to know that you adopted a child.

You talk about what we learn about God through that whole concept of adoption and I love adoption. My brother Carl is adopted and then four years ago. We met Matthew who is in the foster care system and we just felt called to adopt him and I have one other son Carter, who is three years older, and so when Matthew came into our family. Carter had to sacrifice so much for that adoption from sharing everything he had to learning how to mentor and help a child who's coming from a really broken background and there was a moment we were traveling to high falls in Dupont State Forest and if you been there. There's this beautiful waterfall and Matthew had never been to a waterfall before and he was kind of scared and Carter decided to help him and I was sitting a little ways away so I got this picture and I just always stuck in my mind where I saw Carter holding Matthew's hand in helping him. I saw them turn around and Carter talked to Matthew and I saw Carter take off his shoes and get in the water so he could hold Matthew and Matthew wouldn't have to and they kept going and what a picture of Jesus who gives up half of unity gives a what he has. He pays a price and then he's willing to take his shoes half you know and guide us through life in a very humble way.

And so it's just been incredible to understand the depth of Jesus's sacrifice because he loves you and you are worth it. And so I mean if someone had said you're going to have to give up Carter and watch Carter you know die a terrible death to have Matthew I would've said no.

But God said yes to that question. Jesus said yes and so what a powerful powerful story of redemption. I don't think people realize that they are in the middle of the greatest love story of all time is almost gone but there's are one of the thing you just like to say to our listeners to go about this whole public you know I wish I could meet each of you and have coffee with you. Hear your story.

Pray with you. I just want every listener to know that you know my prayer is that this is been an encouragement and that you will be able to find comfort and peace and know that you're not alone, that there millions of us all over the globe just struggling as Christians and there's no shame in that. And Jesus understands it. When the Bible says don't be afraid it's not in a tone of judgment but it's like God talking to a child like I would to my own kids saying don't be afraid and don't be anxious so my prayers don't let other people judge that in you. But please, please find a quick care team get support and just know that I'm I'm praying for you as a listener, and I will continue to thanks for being with us to go. This is going to help anyone who struggling at all because it reminds us that God is with so thanks for being with you. Thanks Gary Hayes find out more about resource "The 5 Love Languages" .com we totally healing names of Jesus find freedom from oppression. You love languages mixed with one of the Bible's sexuality is irrelevant or elements that conversation in one thanks to Janice that Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman's radio in association with ministry and Bible Institute. Thanks for listening

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