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Carolina Journal Radio No. 840: Health care innovations could boost access, reduce costs

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
June 24, 2019 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 840: Health care innovations could boost access, reduce costs

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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June 24, 2019 8:00 am

While Medicaid expansion dominates North Carolina’s health care headlines, other topics deserve attention, too. Jordan Roberts, John Locke Foundation health care policy analyst, focuses on two health care innovations. First, he explains how Medibid connects patients and doctors through online auctions. Second, he discusses the planned merger of Aetna and CVS and the potential impact on retail health care. Advocates of a Convention of States made their pitch again this year in North Carolina. Mark Meckler, president and founder of the Convention of States project, enlisted public support for the idea from conservative commentator and former Florida congressman Allen West. Meckler and West explain how a convention could help rein in an unaccountable federal government. They also rebut concerns from critics who believe a runaway convention could lead to unintended negative consequences. Most public school students advance from grade to grade with their same-age peers. But not all of them are ready for the academic challenges linked to the next grade level. That’s why some state lawmakers are pushing for study of a competency-based education system. You’ll hear details of their plan. Some lawmakers are working again this year to scale back or even eliminate North Carolina’s certificate-of-need restrictions on new medical facilities and major medical equipment. They explained their goals during a recent news conference. They also cited research that questions the value of CON restrictions in states that employ them. Fourteen years after the infamous U.S. Supreme Court decision in Kelo v. City of New London, North Carolina still has taken no steps to boost protection for residents against eminent domain abuse. Jon Guze, John Locke Foundation director of legal studies, explains why state policymakers should address the issue. He says the N.C. House has approved seven different eminent domain reform bills since Kelo. The Senate has yet to address any of them.

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From chair to current tack and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guy during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. Advocates of a proposed convention of states made their pitch again this year in North Carolina. You learn why they believe such a convention could help address an unaccountable federal government is 1/3 grader in third grade because he's mastered all the material in first and second grades or is he in third grade. Just because he's eight years old. Those questions are prompting new discussion of something called competency-based education.

North Carolina's certificate of the law continues to restrict state healthcare providers will hear about the latest proposal to scale back or eliminate the law.

14 years after the infamous kilo case in the US Supreme Court.

North Carolina has yet to step up property rights protections against eminent domain abuse will revisit that issue. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline doctors bidding for patients is just one of the innovative approaches to delivering medical care that is now emerging as we look for ways to expand access to care and of course to lower costs as well. Jordan Roberts is the John Locke foundation's healthcare policy analyst he's been looking into several of these fascinating innovations and joins us now. Jordan welcome back to the program. This government are you posted this this blog I think is just great.

It's about something called meta-bid tell us about this company and this procedure of essentially an auction for medical services.

That's right so many big arm.

They contract with your employer plans and they offer individuals a chance to go on their platform.

Submit a request for a procedure like a hip replacement ACL repair surgery something like that you submit the request and doctors from around the country can view the requests they bid on it for whatever price you know they can offer for men on many bids platform you can get real-time information about the quality of the physician. The training where they went to medical school location, the price and often times you can get a real-time second opinion from another physician to say maybe you don't need quite this procedure you can get something else and it's all one stop shop there on many bid and best part about it is with this auction based bidding process. You really get a market-based price. The highest price that the consumers willing to pay the lowest price of the providers willing to provide the service for so you really what they find.

As you know, substantially less than what Medicare pays for the same rates are truly great essays calls for these big employer plans, individuals, and you may have to travel a little bit. But if that if that's what you want to do to save you know, upwards of $10,000 for a procedure that works great for patients.

It sounds really interesting and amazing. In theory I guess my question for you is that policy analyst Jordan is are Americans ready to essentially get billed for our son, something that is very serious and sure as potential health implications right so you know it's not the traditional way we buy are we access healthcare through our insurer's provider networks, but like I said on the on the platform. There's a place to where people can review and they have quality ranking so you know he is getting a physician that's done this a bunch of times that you has had good reviews knows what they're doing. You can see their training where the facilities out so you go out there may this may be something that you is in your area are out-of-state. But you know there's tons of testimonials from people that have used many bid the employers love it because they can save money. The patient's I would because they can save money and you know they're getting the same procedure that get done just for a lot less.

So you know people maybe a little bit skeptical but there's plenty of people out there that abuse and had great success because it puts the pressure on the provider and the physician to say I want this patient for this price and I will do a good job for it, so my quality ranking online now stays the same interesting in there always early adopters of any type of integration of technology in those go before the rest of us.

Once they have a good experience right rest of us feel more more comfortable in an auction situation does insurance cover this or is this strictly out-of-pocket. Well, so many bid platform focuses mostly with self self-insured employer plans you know where the employer sponsors the plan is is paying out of pocket for all of these so they work closely with those folks and you know if you want to pay a small fee as an individual you can get on thereto, but you know as prices keep going up for these inpatient and outpatient outpatient procedures.

Some insurers may see a benefit in saying here's what will pay for a service you go out and find it in your we could maybe even pay for your travel costs. If it's less than what you pay in the home state so as opportunities.

I think some insurers are working with many bid but bigger employers. They tend to stick to their networks where they contracted with, but these smaller companies that are self-funded or bigger companies that are self self-insured database. The real benefit finding that lowest-cost provider and obvious pressure downward pressure on cost and also with the quality assurance shows you can get the second opinion. You can decide wanted would presume in Jordan that if you had say to people who were bidding on your elective surgery on your legs like that, you might choose to go with a higher price because you feel better about the person's qualifications right and that's your choice and you get all that information right on many bids website is fascinating.

I can't wait to see if this set takes off the thing were watching is an innovation that actually is a merger between Aetna and CVS. Now this is that this merger is being reviewed by a judge. Right now, but an insurance company and a big time retail store. Why do they want to get together right so CVS and Ross couple years I've really got into the healthcare field and you know how to say they have their pharmacies in their stores. So heavily involved with the whole health insurance healthcare process so at a large insurance company and CVS are merging. So what they want to do is to try to under one roof. Put insurance contracts and pharmaceutical contracts to try to better coordinate all that and offer lower prices is a lot of people are skeptical because you know in healthcare.

These large big mergers tend you know not really promote a lot of competition and you know this and address of adverse effects whenever there's large mergers like this in healthcare, but what they're saying is that if we can get it all under one, one roof, and CVS is really their minute clinics you know are starting to be more heavily utilized by folks. Then there's lines have actually been in his yes and there was a line of people waiting house on nurse practitioners or physicians assistants that are highly trained license, just like other positions, they just choose to care in a minute clinic like that because the benefits I can see more patients and not under all the typical overhead and traditional physician's office.

So what they see as an opportunity to really bring the pharmaceutical side and the insurance side and maybe this new and up-and-coming retail aspect, all under one roof. So like you said is being reviewed in court to see its competitive effects on the market.

You know there's always concern throughout these large mergers, but no, I really think with the way the markets going more patients were more convenience, more lower costs. You know right right at your fingertips, healthcare, and these retail clinics can offer it for a lot of services. We talked often about them. Many people in the industry of delivering medical care, trying to get those of us who are patients in need of care out of an emergency setting where it's at a very costly situation in our seeing the retail things were seeing these urgent care facilities people really are getting a lot more choices if they know that they have a choice. That's right.

And so you know, as these retail clinics become more popular, people realize that they can go there for for small minor procedures that they would typically have to schedule an appointment with her primary care physician and use their insurance pay the co-pay when they can go right into a minute clinic does not align my can see your they can walk right in and get you know have a culturally treated in all these different kinds of like small procedures that could be done in a doctor's office but can also be done at the convenience of you know retail store like CBS. Jordan Roberts is the healthcare policy analyst for the John lock foundation. You can read all of his work, including the two subjects we been talking about at John lock.board thank you thank you much more Carolina journal radio, in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign up Carolina you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles.

Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Carolina journal rigorous unrelenting old-school journalism. We hold government accountable for you look back Carolina journal radio I'm guy thickets of a convention of states are making their case again in North Carolina and they have some high profile support joining us to discuss the convention are Mark Meckler, president and founder of the convention of states Project Col. Allen West combat veteran, former congressman from Florida and well-known author and political commentator.

What do you both so first of all, Mark explained to us, for those who are familiar with what is conventional about journal article 5 of the situation contains two clauses both yield how we propose amendments and ratify the Constitution.

The second clause is one that allows you regular people acting through state legislatures to call a convention of states. The states together specifically to propose amendments to restrain the power of the scope and the jurisdiction of the federal government so that's orientation right now.

15 states have passed an application to do so already takes 34 states to get the convention were almost halfway there. What about this idea appeals to you was good to be back in North Carolina, spent five years of my military service here in the agreed-upon members between Fort Bragg, North Carolina, journal, line of the way to the Marines but you know my my oath was to the Constitution. That's what were you five article 5, and then having served theCongress. I see that the right balance between the states and the federal government is now so the fountain falls and all the brilliance put this mechanism in place where the vacant and we can restore that social federalism and that's what this is all about. It is not just the enumerated powers to go to the pro-government and the more you serve it is that those powers that are not enumerated are retained by the states and also the people. That's what we're here to make sure that Carolina can join this this movement noticed some of the most well-known supporters of this movement are people who have been served in Congress seeing how it's work or not work. Is that something that really pushed you toward this seeing how Congress doesn't work absolutely is always share with Mark we think about 40 to 50 states have to balance their budgets. The federal government does not have that as well continue to have the runaway deficit spending that the growing increasing that the unfunded mandates and liabilities of the push down on the states which causes them so much consternation as I try to figure how to balance the budget, so that's one of the key things that this article 5 convention of states can do that. Also, when you look up there and remember there was a member of Congress that have been in Congress longer than I have been alive so I think the term limits is a good thing because the more you are away from your constituents. The more you lean towards the inner bubble of Boston you referenced term limits. If we have this venture and what is the goal what the convention would do so. There are three areas I can be discussing only three areas. One is anything that would impose fiscal restraints on the photo that watercourses was said to include a balanced budget amendment, but also partly include things like preventing unfunded mandates or imposing generally accepted accounting principles on these accounting system I referred to as unicorns and rainbows are not based in real has nothing do with real budgeting facts. Citizens of the same accounting system is would be put in jail for doing so. We need to impose fiscal restraints on the federal government second areas. Term limits not just for Congress for the federal judiciary for staffers for bureaucrats. Nobody was meant to spend their entire lives in Washington DC. The founders and plan on that in the last is anything that would limit the scope the power and jurisdiction of federal very specific one on that as most people think the federal government should get their noses out of our education. There is nothing in the Constitution is in the power to do so except for the court interpretation of the Supreme Court. Thomas Jefferson himself said it would require a constitutional amendment for the federal to be involved in education.

We need to get amount of education out of energy and commerce all the things that were not part of the original enumerated powers.

All these things can be discussed at convention. We are chatting with Mark Meckler and Lieut. Col. Allen West about the convention of states Project we have spoken to you on this program before.

And every time we have had someone who was right of center contact me and say wait a minute there something wrong with this.

These these guys may be selling you this is going to be leading to good policy, but we need to be worried about states. Why are they off base.

While I was earlier this mean that people are an expert on this most important to be an expert at everything. I would look at all the people who supported so people like me like with any colonel here who are alive to represent the conservative principles got people like Marco van and Sean Hannity. Most recently Ben Shapiro signed on board with Sen. Tom Coburn Sen. Jim demand James Dobson. These are people that are lifelong conservatives that have studied the issues they understand our politics and they all say that those people are saying that you are wrong with the people worried about something called a runaway convention there worried about people on the left, taking over the convention and destroying the Constitution taking where fundamental liberties the truth is that all the national leftist groups are against this group so they would want to take away your liberties are against this, they signed a press release was started by George Soros is group common cause of center on budget and policy priorities only known one Roz of Planned Parenthood of the ACLU, the NAACP, all the major public employees all against this. The reason is it's not about people being evil or bad layout. Soros is the big menace because they actually like centralized power in Washington DC. They can push the buttons and levers much easier if everything is controlled from the sea. We as conservatives, we like power dispersed would like to see it in the states seen at the local level. Frankly, I like to see invested in the jewel so it can't runaway. That's crazy. That's an idea pushed by the left and importantly some people on the right have bought it not true takes 38 states to ratify anything that comes out of this convention bar so high I worry more about can we get amendments out and ratified something crazy was to ask you if we don't do something like the connection of states. What kinds of problems do you see with Washington continuing the status quo. Well, I mean this is here now, when you think about things such as the green new deal. When you look at what is happening with our borders and the fact that you have an asylum lawsuit or not change you have the federal government, especially thumbing their nose at the people and at our states and say were going to do whatever we wanted to drop this country into financial, economic ruin, so at some point time we have to get this under control unless we start to look like a Greece or Italy in the future, got helpless, maybe even a Venezuelan when you look at some of the policies and proposals that are coming out of the folks from the progressive socialist left who are seeking to have control. Let me give you a counter to what were trying to do here with the convention of the state is not a constitutional commission the states on the left. They have this thing called the national popular vote. Interstate compact and so we have people on our side are pushing back must know something is in our Constitution while notice on the left is working very hard to overturn the vote of the people in the respective state.

So now they have 13 states in the district of Columbia that is said in the 2020 election cycle. Our electoral votes will not go to the person that wins our state is going to go to the person was the popular vote and what are they so confident with that because you look back at this last election, down from 138. Some states Hillary Clinton launch well guess what, there were more votes in those 12 states because of the population density, so we need people that are informed are educated on these issues which the left really seems to be and then I'll just dovetail off something Mark said initially, George Soros, like the convention states because he thought he could go in and overturn citizens United when he found out that the founding fathers were brilliant and they really restricted what could come out of the commission the states.

Now he's totally against. So that's why we're here to once again elevate this issue informed people and get them to understand and you know we don't teach civics anymore so this is why you have not just our kids but adults don't understand these things.

That is the voice of Lieut. Col. Allen West. You also heard from Mark Meckler, president and founder of the convention states project once again making their case in North Carolina. Thanks much for joining us will have more on Carolina drone radio. If you love freedom we got great news to share with you now.

You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blocks on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and like foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James T Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina

Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal. Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news if it's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal. Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John lock in C and at Carolina journal. Who knew you could shop and invest in freedom at the same time it is true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shop using the Amazon smile program and designate the John Mott foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop Amazon donates money to pass the John Locke foundation is now long time to Amazon smile is the same Amazon you know same products same prices.

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One proposal moving through the North Carolina Gen. assembly could shake up the way schools teach their students. Republican state representative Craig Horn of Union County sponsors the measure. I want to start by asking you a question is rhetorical so I don't expect an answer. I want you to think about the question that question is to questions of ever any of you ever had children in the third grade, so why are they in the third grade because there eight years old so that's where third, eight-year-old third grade or is it because that every subject that they're taking third grade 3rd grade level and if you think that's true. I'm going to challenge that notion suggest to you the different kids learn different things at different rates and actually we need to take a different look at how kids progressed through school and look not at their age chronological age and look not at their grade level, whichever arbitrarily grade level with the man. The competency competency can they do are they doing the work that's why Horn sponsored House Bill 714 do directs the state Board of Education to recommend how we can project transition. Our education system in this state away from the traditional kindergarten first second third year there, because usually the right age to a competency-based system.

It's being done in some schools in the state. This being done in some districts in this nation. I think it's time for us to look at kids themselves of the delivery of education to a child in a way that works for each and every child.

All this Bill asked the state Board of Education to begin that process, Democratic state representative Charles Graham asked for more details. You mentioned that there are some locations were competency-based assessments are successful in their getting away from the traditional way placements. I have some first-hand work, see base assessments and competency-based schools for proprietor are successful, Westminster, Colorado week a few weeks ago we had the superintendent from that entire public school district come to talk to the principal's Association about how they transitioned to a competency-based system so it can work it is working it's it's a difficult change and that's why. First, we need to take a look at it, let's get the professionals here in North Carolina.

Take a look at it and recommend how or should we do that in our state.

A unanimous statehouse approved the measure you need support from the Senate to become law. More Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well.

We guarantee great information and a good time � that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listened Locke to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation will connect Carolina journal radio amateur coca efforts continue in the North Carolina Gen. assembly to reform the state common law con stands for certificate of need. That's the government permission slip a healthcare provider needs for new hospital facilities, additional beds or major medical equipment, first-term state representative Edward Godwin of Chowan County explains why he got involved. The reason I'm here today. The primary reason I got started in this stuff was a coast and free marketplace should be able to start in the business would like to start state and local will choose if by the local restrictions and guidelines and get a permit to build and operate my business the way fool Carlos operate that if he is free marketplace for you that is not fair is amazing to me was so concerned about healthcare but yet we know the impact of Carlos old healthcare people in the state will not talk about all the states is just excitable, we do not have a single walk-in clinic in six guns.

We have two small hospitals and those hospitals that we just one that was close started back up. Hope it makes it with. We still have to drive a long way for healthcare because mainly they hold in areas so everything is under one system. We have violation of free market enterprise in the system. What we have now and the people who decide will not an applicant gets approval for certificate of need of the very people that are in competition with these amateur surgery.that is not Godwin compared the con processed rules governing private sector businesses in the state nor, if we get to a four way intersection and McDonald's comes along one of the sections and Burger King was to go to the intersection. If somebody on that kind a board of planning and zoning is got interest in a McDonald's that person has recused himself. But on the Carlow that person does not have to recuse the cell phone in the console and milk alone is made up of hospital administrators in the hospital.that automatically takes the system and slants another way Godwin offered a price comparison for cataract surgery in which any physician old Blue Ridge surgery so advantage $2813 the hospital and what kind the coast is 10,613. I hope you kept up with the numbers you see real quick is about 8000 different glimmers cannot hospital William concert.

$2463 new Brunswick Medical Center, 7300 photos of her attending physician old service expresses religious and $643.

The hospital 11,800 you see this friend of those numbers now they will magnify when you knee surgery, wrist surgery, neck surgery, anything else like that. Freshman Sen. Jim Bergen also joined the push for certificate of need reform this year. He once served on the state health coordinating Council or shack that oversees con insurance business for over 30 years served on the hospital for 15 years served on the ship for a number of years County Commissioner for eight years and I'm passionate about mental health and mental health for the state. So as I got into the ceiling and saw at work and had a personal experience with COM when I was in the hospital for we actually got a ceiling for new hospital and then there was a political decision-making issue a combating but the exact same COM for our care. Over $9 million was spent in legal battles and not one penny of it with healthcare, so I'm pretty passionate about Seo and what we need to look at how we need to do things State Sen. Ralph ties as a veteran of the campaign to scale back or eliminate con loss to explain one of the current problems with the existing law will allow hospital facilities and other procedure rooms almost as long as the amount place doesn't make certain threshold. So I made certain all other equipment we because that doesn't count against the cost of the equipment within the room mobile equipment. There are so many areas in the state that we see where calls can really be dropped. Competition and more availability within the market is to have information now serves as the greatest cost savings. Individuals would also because ice referenced ambulatory surgery centers. A key piece of the current con reform debate involves exempting those sinners from state approval beyond the specifics of North Carolina's debate researcher Matt Mitchell of the Mercator center talks about the general benefits of reforming certificate of need laws as far as healthcare is a policy issue things going for is that the goals are really not as platforms of as a goal.

Three things greater access to care, higher quality care and lower cost for that greater access to the nice thing is both economic theory and the empirical evidence suggests competition is serviceable. I hear a lot of like a better word fear mongering scares about what would happen for the nice thing is we don't have to wonder, we have now. This National Service is been going on for right now percent of the US population lives in a senior healthcare facility without asking for permission and without expecting providers to doing so and we can look at the experiences of those that percent of the population. These are rich and poor states. States with ulcers of different graphics to serve urban role states we can look at. We gather data factors. We can run controlled experiments regression controls for these types of factors we can see what happens. The evidence is overwhelming that do not have these barriers to competition.

They have greater access to care for hospice care facilities have more surgery centers greater access to scanning equipment likely to seek care less like there's fewer racial disparities provision 2.2 other benefits from con reform. We find it in non-con states health outcomes in terms of mission rates vibrates after heart attack and heart failure. There better and we find the cost.

This is not rising to an economist. Most of our models do actually greater addition leads to lower cost, higher quality, greater access is also his leg. Not all that surprising to trust authorities explains why, for decades the Democratic traditions trust authorities and Federal Trade Commission justice position, competitive going back to the initial idea of the bipartisan goals of healthcare reform.

Increased access, lower cost, quality, musings from that perspective pretty easy reform that Matt Mitchell of the Mercator center is one of the people speaking in favor of North Carolina reforming its certificate of need laws will return with North Carolina German radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the germline foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms in the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are.

Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I'm Donna Martin us North Carolina lawmakers should protect its citizens from eminent domain abuse that is the conclusion of the John Mark foundation's director of legal studies John to say John recently points out that North Carolina is one of the few states that has not been successful in robustly protecting its citizens from having their homes taken and given to a developer. It's all part of this kilo decision from a number of years ago.

John joins us now with an update on what's happening across the country. John welcome back to the program just briefly review for us. The kilo versus the city of New London decision that Supreme Court decision. Why are so many people concerned about that. Well, it's really turned out to be one of the most unpopular decisions the Supreme Court is made certainly in my lifetime and the reason is pretty obvious what happened New London is this the city evoked a state law and gave a private development Corporation, the power to take ordinary citizens houses so that they could use the land to build what they call the high-end development that was going to involve apartments, offices, hotels, and so on. The city like the idea they thought they get more revenue. They get rid of the working class neighborhood and have something upscale but the that the people whose houses were to be taken. One of them nice lady mentor that Suzette kilo oppose this. She said she decide to stand up and fight and she rallied her neighbors and they did. They fought all the way to the US Supreme Court where much to anybody's disappointment. In some cases, like mine shock they lost. The Supreme Court said, it's perfectly all right in the U.S. Constitution for a private development to take land from one group of private citizens and give it to another private citizen for commercial development. One would think that that would not happen in a free country like the United States, but the homeowner would be compensated, but that, but the point being that if a city official somewhere decides that G you happen to have a house or a neighborhood on land that has become valuable for one reason or another, or we think it would be better used for a shopping center. We can just take it from you.

Well, that's the law. The sets of federal law. People thought that the takings clause of the Fifth Amendment for date for baby this sort of thing under the takings clause. It says that property may be taken for public use and for a long time. Everybody assume public that public use that something like a school building a prison military base of road or possibly something that was by a public utility like railroad or a telephone company to put up life that had to be something that was open to the public to all comers, not a private developer.

This is the thing that seem so shocking John. We know that some states have reacted to distant and trying to do things that would protect their citizens from this North Carolina is issue North Carolina one of the states that as yet been successful at doing this. Tell us what some other states have done so. What happened after kilo. Is there was this public outcry all across the country.

One state after another passed laws under their own state law to do something to prevent this from happening.

There were two ways to go about this in most states did something along those lines.

You can add supervision to your own state's constitution that would put some teeth into a takings clause, and could also write your own state statutes regarding domain in such a way to prevent these. Ideally, what the states of dotted and is puts provisions of the specifically forbid takings for commercial development.

They state specifically that that will constitute a public use even states that haven't done that though have found other ways to put restrictions on the protect property rights. Interestingly enough, the region that's done the best job overall is ours in the southeast of the two states with the best mentor may lost now by I think all experts would agree are Virginia and Florida were lagging way behind and I would just be nice to see something done. John, let's make sure that our our listeners understand so were talking about. Kilo being a United States Supreme Court decision you're talking about states taking action in their own state constitutions. So, which trumps which well the federal federal law trumps state law. So if it were the case that the Supreme Court had said no you can't transfer from one private party to another for commercial velvet that violates the Fifth Amendment. If the Supreme Court said that the developer any state would be allowed to do it, but what the court said instead boys were not going to believe this to the states.

They said it's not for us, a federal court to decide what constitutes a public purpose. They said public use.

Anything that serves a public purpose constitutes a public use commercial development by the tax base or whatever is a public purpose. Therefore, it passes muster and they said were not even going to without even going to investigate will leave it up to the states to make these decisions for themselves so. In fact, the decision specifically said that there's nothing, nothing we say here today prevent states from putting in more strict requirements and protections that many states have done it, but North Carolina so far is not.

There is been there been efforts that will in North Carolina by some to try to do this but it is only partially successful. That's right is been repeated efforts is that a group of very diligent and dedicated members of the North Carolina House that have tried 7�2. They have written bills that would add more protection of property rights under the state constitution of the state statute seven times. These have passed in the house either unanimously or almost unanimously. At seven times and go to the Senate but every single time they die is happy right now just secession the house passed it. Other than that of a reform bill and our city in the Senate and is the point that you and I are talking, that has not moved from the Senate, the lead author of the kilo decision is now a former justice that John Paul Stevens. He's been talking about this decision recently. That's right. He's recently published a sort of a memoir.

It's not exactly an autobiography, because it deals primarily just with his time on the court. He reviews many many decisions, including the list to say. Kilo because that's one of the ones for which he's been most severely criticized what he saying he saying I made the right call my regrets.

Despite all the criticism I still think that was the right way to go and you know, given the certain attitude about the role of the Supreme Court. I guess that makes sense. We've we've had federal courts in general and sprinkler particular be very deferential to both the Congress and to the state legislatures when it comes to economic matters and as far Stevens is concerned, that's how to be John this is a situation that Ted and Suzette, kilo, face down, and she tried to fight back. Most people would say that sounds terrible but will never happen to me.

Well I think until the kilo decision was handed out most people just assume it could happen to them.

They didn't realize it was happening all over the country.

Now I will say this, we've been pretty lucky in North Carolina compared to many states we haven't seen much of this kind of abuse. And that's because our Supreme Court has interpreted our laws allowing cloth in a way that restricts evidence domain, but I think what the statehouse is one to do and what I think ought to be done is we don't want to rely on the on the course because we know from kilo if they want to. The courts can interpret the law in a way that allows this kind of abuse. It would be nice to see something in writing to make sure it couldn't happen here talking about the kilo decision. Kilo versus the city of New London, not 2005. I believe that that decision came down from the US Supreme Court, and it continues to have ripple effects across the country as some states adjust their state constitutions to protect their citizens North Carolina as John to say has described there been multiple efforts to do so, but so far that Constitution has not yet been amended. Thank you so much. Thank you for the time we have for Carolina internal radio this week.

Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost, Muskoka Donna Martinez hope you join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke done. Call 66 GLS 166-553-4636 Carolina radio is the timeline foundation airline is maintaining Carolina broadcast system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so clearly with more information about the show programs foundation 386891 radio affiliates across airline Carolina Journal radio.

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